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kraftiekortie
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13 Jun 2017, 9:47 pm

I knew somebody who spoke with a combination German/African accent when she "spoke in tongues." She might also use a German prefix with a Yoruba (Nigerian ethnic group) base word.

She never got past the fifth grade in school---but when she was "in the spirit," she could read difficult philosophical tracts.

She was involved with the Shango religion, also known as the Spiritual Baptists. They use components of Christianity and of Yoruba religion.

Interesting phenomenon.



EzraS
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13 Jun 2017, 10:26 pm

I think Pentacostalism's heightened focus on supernatural manifestations and its more charismatic approach to worship, makes it more vulnerable to exploitation by kooks and con artists than other mainstream protestant denominations.



kraftiekortie
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13 Jun 2017, 11:28 pm

That's true...but my friend was no kook. I don't believe in that stuff--but I learned a lot from this person and her friends.



EzraS
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13 Jun 2017, 11:39 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's true...but my friend was no kook. I don't believe in that stuff--but I learned a lot from this person and her friends.


Oh sorry, I was just making a general statement rather than that being a reply to your post although it might have looked that way. Shango religion and Yoruba religion is beyond my scope of knowledge, so I can't really offer an opinion on it.

I do know that people who are "in the spirit" have accomplished things that would normally be beyond their abilities, which I agree is an interesting phenomenon.



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14 Jun 2017, 1:35 am

Misslizard wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/twenty-pentecostals-packed-car-192802


I remember that from when it had first happened!


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Kiprobalhato
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14 Jun 2017, 1:38 am

EzraS wrote:
If someone started a thread called Islam's Dark Side, it would most likely be removed.


it's not the title that dooms those threads, its the bickering and the *real* bigotry that almost inevitably follows.

While it is acceptable to attack and debate beliefs (political, religious etc) it is not acceptable to make generalised attacks on the adherents of those beliefs....


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EzraS
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14 Jun 2017, 2:00 am

Kiprobalhato wrote:
EzraS wrote:
If someone started a thread called Islam's Dark Side, it would most likely be removed.


it's not the title that dooms those threads, its the bickering and the *real* bigotry that almost inevitably follows.

While it is acceptable to attack and debate beliefs (political, religious etc) it is not acceptable to make generalised attacks on the adherents of those beliefs....


While I brought up the title, my real focus was on intent as to what is being presented. Such as starting a thead just to mock whatever rather than wanting to start a legitimate discussion/debate.

And it does seem to me overall mocking Christianity is regarded as considerably more acceptable than mocking Islam or Judaism.



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14 Jun 2017, 11:57 am

EzraS wrote:
StinkyDog wrote:
A mature intelligent theological discussion would take mainstream Pentecostalism, ... Pentecostalism's doctrine regarding Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues...


Speaking in Tongues is the opposite of intelligent theological discussion--it is pure babbling. :D



jrjones9933
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14 Jun 2017, 12:17 pm

Speaking in Tongues seems to me like a perfectly reasonable way to access the subconscious mind. Some friends of mine dragged me to The Healing Explosion in Austin, one time. They found it highly amusing, while I observed the ritual in a more or less detached manner. However, when they started speaking in tongues, we all got caught up in the emotion of it. I found it confusingly profound in an unexpected way.

I suppose that people who practice the ritual religiously avoid psychological exploration of the phenomenon, but their fervor should not stand in the way of scientific inquiry. They could be onto something, despite the problems with authoritarianism noted in the first linked article.

At least democratic institutions have a way to overrule the central authority when that person goes off the rails. It also seems likely that unquestioning loyalty and obeisance increase the chances of a leader losing touch with reality. This pertains to our current political situation in the US. The Cult of Trump shows the same symptoms.


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14 Jun 2017, 6:12 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Speaking in Tongues seems to me like a perfectly reasonable way to access the subconscious mind. Some friends of mine dragged me to The Healing Explosion in Austin, one time. They found it highly amusing, while I observed the ritual in a more or less detached manner. However, when they started speaking in tongues, we all got caught up in the emotion of it. I found it confusingly profound in an unexpected way.

I suppose that people who practice the ritual religiously avoid psychological exploration of the phenomenon, but their fervor should not stand in the way of scientific inquiry. They could be onto something, despite the problems with authoritarianism noted in the first linked article.

At least democratic institutions have a way to overrule the central authority when that person goes off the rails. It also seems likely that unquestioning loyalty and obeisance increase the chances of a leader losing touch with reality. This pertains to our current political situation in the US. The Cult of Trump shows the same symptoms.


What you describe is a dissociative state, brought about by religiously induced hysteria. It's absolutely no different from so called Possession Phenomenon. Such occurrences are today rare in the industrialized west, save for culturally isolated groups, such as Pentecostals and other groups outside the mainstream.


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14 Jun 2017, 7:30 pm

"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?" --Acts 2:8

The important point of the first occurrence of "tongues" is that everyone present clearly understood everything said because his or her own language or "tongue" was being spoken by others who did not actually know it for themselves. There was absolutely no mere babbling in any incomprehensible "tongues". Many years ago I was part of a congregation where "tongues" took place, but *never* more than one-at-a-time or without being immediately followed by an interpretation from someone else speaking in clear English. I was usually still rather skeptical because too many "interpretations" were coming from too few people and sounding too similar even when the initial utterance had been much different than any other, but there were also times when I was quite convinced something had just been sent from the figurative "Throne Room". So overall, here is what many people miss today:

"If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret..." --I Corinthians 14:27


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jrjones9933
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14 Jun 2017, 7:57 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
Speaking in Tongues seems to me like a perfectly reasonable way to access the subconscious mind. Some friends of mine dragged me to The Healing Explosion in Austin, one time. They found it highly amusing, while I observed the ritual in a more or less detached manner. However, when they started speaking in tongues, we all got caught up in the emotion of it. I found it confusingly profound in an unexpected way.

I suppose that people who practice the ritual religiously avoid psychological exploration of the phenomenon, but their fervor should not stand in the way of scientific inquiry. They could be onto something, despite the problems with authoritarianism noted in the first linked article.

At least democratic institutions have a way to overrule the central authority when that person goes off the rails. It also seems likely that unquestioning loyalty and obeisance increase the chances of a leader losing touch with reality. This pertains to our current political situation in the US. The Cult of Trump shows the same symptoms.


What you describe is a dissociative state, brought about by religiously induced hysteria. It's absolutely no different from so called Possession Phenomenon. Such occurrences are today rare in the industrialized west, save for culturally isolated groups, such as Pentecostals and other groups outside the mainstream.


I hadn't looked at the state of research on this subject in some time, and it appears the social sciences may have taken an increased interest in these phenomena. I'll have to read up more on the current science.


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jrjones9933
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14 Jun 2017, 8:05 pm

leejosepho wrote:
"And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born?" --Acts 2:8

The important point of the first occurrence of "tongues" is that everyone present clearly understood everything said because his or her own language or "tongue" was being spoken by others who did not actually know it for themselves. There was absolutely no mere babbling in any incomprehensible "tongues". Many years ago I was part of a congregation where "tongues" took place, but *never* more than one-at-a-time or without being immediately followed by an interpretation from someone else speaking in clear English. I was usually still rather skeptical because too many "interpretations" were coming from too few people and sounding too similar even when the initial utterance had been much different than any other, but there were also times when I was quite convinced something had just been sent from the figurative "Throne Room". So overall, here is what many people miss today:

"If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret..." --I Corinthians 14:27

My experience happened at a massive revival in an old concert hall, long since demolished. The preacher just exhorted everyone for a while and then once he started with the tongues it spread through the entire room very quickly. There were hundreds of people present, all going at once. The effect was intense, but no one tried to interpret anything.


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14 Jun 2017, 8:15 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
What you describe is a dissociative state, brought about by religiously induced hysteria. It's absolutely no different from so called Possession Phenomenon. Such occurrences are today rare in the industrialized west, save for culturally isolated groups, such as Pentecostals and other groups outside the mainstream.


Many would argue that regarding any prayer to and worship of an invisible being. All mainstream christianity believes the holy spirit dwells within them and guides their actions. The idea of christianity is to disassociate yourself from your personal will and desires and let god take control of your actions through the holy spirit.



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14 Jun 2017, 8:31 pm

StinkyDog wrote:
EzraS wrote:
StinkyDog wrote:
A mature intelligent theological discussion would take mainstream Pentecostalism, ... Pentecostalism's doctrine regarding Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues...


Speaking in Tongues is the opposite of intelligent theological discussion--it is pure babbling. :D


It's been argued that talking to an invisible being verbally or telepathically in any form whatsoever is pure delusional babbling. The only difference in pentecostalism is they add a component into prayer and worship that's found in scripture. The argument given by the rest of mainstream christianity is their interpretation of that scripture is inaccurate.



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14 Jun 2017, 9:10 pm

Per Acts 2

Quote:
And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God...


If it were real, then everyone would understand the babbling of a modern pentecostal, as if the pentecostal were speaking the language of the listener. This doesn't happen any more. Obviously, the modern pentecostals are fakes.